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Buddy Christ

Jesus: An Astrological Allegory?

Posted on 2008.10.20 at 07:45
Current Location: 75409
Current Music: Love and War/The Vice of Killing/Father to Son/Just Talkin' About Shaft
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Since we last discussed the question of Christ's divinity, I've come across a rather enigmatic web film which attempts to tackle the issue of global societal control vis-à-vis a trifecta of machinations: Economy, Terrorism & Religion. While each branch of this triad has the weight of tens of thousands of years of history behind its claim, the web film manages to, in about two hours, outline their interpretation for your consideration. Today, I'd like to focus on that last part of this trefoil - religion.

Just so we're all starting on the same baseline, during out last discussion there were no disagreements on the fact that Christianity is based upon pagan religions and minsters ordained by an accredited seminary are versed in this history, and the elaborate reasons behind why its okay (generally accepted that in bringing people to Christ the end justifies the means). There's no arguing the pagan origins of Christmas and Easter, for example - this is well documented and not necessary to rehash in this forum. We ended with the question could Christ be pagan as well?

The religion portion of the web film alone (Part I: The Greatest Story Ever Told) contains 197 entries in its bibliography; some of which I'm familiar with, and others I'm following up on. Fascinating discoveries for me. And while I'm knowledgeable concerning pagan symbolism in Christianity, I am completely ignorant when it comes to astrology - this is a notable deficit as pagan rituals are based upon astrology. So I must ask myself how much do I actually know, and will the theories this film draws support, or disprove my own conclusions? As it turns out, it managed to do both. I'll start with by paraphrasing the film's transcript:

As far back as 10 thousand B.C. history is abundant with carvings and writings reflecting people's respect and adoration for the sun, as every morning it would rise, bringing vision, warmth, and security, saving man from the cold, blind, predator-filled darkness of night. Without it, the cultures understood, the crops would not grow, and life on the planet would not survive. These realities made the sun the most adored object of all time. Also being aware of the stars, and learning to track them in anticipation of events and the cyclic nature of the earth over time, they cataloged celestial groups into what we know today as constellations and conceptualized and personified them by way of the zodiac.

I was brought up to believe the zodiac was a tool of the devil - akin to an Ouija board. I now understand it to be nothing more than a kind of ancient "Farmer's Almanac" as it simply displays the months of the year in order, and the demarcation of the four seasons.

But how does any of this relate to Jesus? Three thousand years before Christ, the Egyptians worshiped this son of god, a deity who was born of a virgin on December 25th indicated by a star in the East followed by three kings, was able to perform miracles such as walking on water and turning water into wine. He also had 12 disciples. Later betrayed, he was then crucified and buried and after three days, resurrected. 3000 years before Christ. His name was Horus. The Lamb of God. The Shepherd. He was considered the center of the zodiac - the sun, and because of the sun's life-giving power, he was worshiped as we now worship the 'light' of Christ.

Attis of Phyrigia, Krishna of India, Dionysus of Greece and Mithra of Persia also share these similarities. With such overwhelming evidentiary proof of ancient pagan gods being nearly identical to what we've been taught to believe as our savior, aren't you the least bit curious why? Or do you think it an influence of Satan trying to test our faith by planting doubt, easily dismissed by the righteous? I used to believe this. No matter the evidence, I knew that God's word was true.

Howerver, the commonalities in these dieties, with the obvious inclusion of Christ, appears entirely astrological. Quoting directly now, from the transcript (underlined text mine):

The star in the east is Sirius, the brightest star in the night sky, which, on December 24th, aligns with the 3 brightest stars in Orion's Belt. These 3 bright stars are called today what they were called in ancient times: The Three Kings. The Three Kings and the brightest star, Sirius, all point to the place of the sunrise on December 25th. This is why the Three Kings "follow" the star in the east, in order to locate the sunrise -- the birth of the sun (son) Horus.

There is another very interesting phenomenon that occurs around December 25th, or the winter solstice. From the summer solstice to the winter solstice, the days become shorter and colder. From the perspective of the northern hemisphere, the sun appears to move south and get smaller and more scarce. The shortening of the days and the expiration of the crops when approaching the winter solstice symbolized the process of death to the ancients. It was the death of the Sun. By December 22nd, the Sun's demise was fully realized, for the Sun, having moved south continually for 6 months, makes it to it's lowest point in the sky. Here a curious thing occurs: the Sun stops moving south, at least conceivably, for 3 days. During this 3 day pause, the Sun resides in the vicinity of the Southern Cross, or Crux, constellation. And after this time on December 25th, the Sun moves 1 degree, this time north, foreshadowing longer days, warmth, and Spring. And thus it was said: the Sun died on the cross, was dead for 3 days, only to be resurrected or born again. This is why Jesus and numerous other Sun Gods share the crucifixion, 3-day death, and resurrection concept. It is the Sun's transition period before it shifts its direction back into the Northern Hemisphere, bringing Spring, and thus salvation

Personally, none of this strikes me as mere coincidence. I mean sure its possible to come up with many scenarios for why Jesus is not Christ, but this looks like more. Much more. Christians who have seen this web film have begun several 'debunking' sites, some of which I've read over, and I find their logic circular in nature. By calling the divinity of Christ into question, I'm also forced to discredit its vehicle - the bible. Ergo, quoting the bible - the words of Jesus as proof against my suggestion that its false, contradicts this defense. If I were trying to get people to believe I was divine by handing you documented proof, you can be damn sure I'm going to include clauses within it which state my proof shall never be questioned, and that there will be those who will try to dissuade you from believing it!

On other issues, the debunking sites appear to succeed in discrediting by reciting historically more accurate data (the true physical birth of a man named Jesus likely being sometime during the fall harvest (which theologians understand as being more likely based on timelines hinted at in the bible)) but these do nothing to logically deconstruct the film as a whole. In other words, they're focusing on the wrong things. Surely you have to process all available information to understand why you believe what you believe. If you don't question your own beliefs, how can you defend them? Faith? How do you know what you know? That's a fairly straight-forward question.

When others have come to me in the past with astrologically-based assumptions I've ignored them for several good reasons -

  • Myth There are no 'facts' surrounding the horoscope in your gossip magazine, and every once in a while, they're sure to come true because the nature of their vague predictions. That's all the zodiac is, horoscopes, right? Besides, I don't believe in that stuff. Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

  • Faith If you know in your heart that God created the heavens and earth, the rest of this is just new age bullshit. Its not important to hear blasphemous pagan theories, because its simply a waste of time and you don't have to prove yourself to anyone - not even yourself. Besides, Jesus told you to turn away from witchcraft, which this surely is.

  • Belief You don't know how exactly, but the entire world is going to hell and you're not, because you've accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. All the religions of all the people in all the world from the beginning of time are wrong. They'll have their chance for redemption when Jesus returns.

Oversimplified sure - but so is faith. Faith is easy. It allows you to ignore anything you choose to, including facts.

Finally, word on the ages. Completely new information for me, and I find it fascinating in the context we're discussing today. For some of you scholars out there (or new-age types) this may be old hat. As for me, I'm finding that the more I know, the more I discover I don't know.

Now, of the many astrological-astronomical metaphors in the Bible, one of the most important has to do with the ages. Throughout the scripture there are numerous references to the "Age." In order to understand this, we need to be familiar with the phenomenon known as the precession of the equinoxes. The ancient Egyptians along with cultures long before them recognized that approximately every 2150 years the sunrise on the morning of the spring equinox would occur at a different sign of the Zodiac. This has to do with a slow angular wobble that the Earth maintains as it rotates on it's axis.It is called a precession because the constellations go backwards, rather than through the normal yearly cycle. The amount of time that it takes for the precession to go through all 12 signs is roughly 25,765 years. This is also called the "Great Year," and ancient societies were very aware of this. They referred to each 2150 year period as an "age." From 4300 B.C. to 2150 B.C, it was the Age of Taurus, the Bull. From 2150 B.C. to 1 A.D., it was the Age of Aries, the Ram, and from 1 A.D. to 2150 A.D it is the Age of Pisces, the age we are still in to this day, and in and around 2150, we will enter the new age: the Age of Aquarius.

I'm not suggesting we return to pagan beliefs and start worshiping the sun, rather that we attempt to understand the basis for which ancient man began to understand their surrounding - an early application of applied mathmatics through discovery and testing of theory. Hell, I can't prove now that the Earth rotates around the sun. Everything we do today simply plays off of past discoveries.

Now, the Bible reflects, broadly speaking, a symbolic movement through 3 ages, while foreshadowing a 4th. In the Old Testament when Moses comes down Mount Sinai with the 10 Commandments, he is very upset to see his people worshiping a golden bull calf. In fact, he shattered the stone tablets and instructed his people to kill each other in order to purify themselves. Most Biblical scholars would attribute this anger to the fact that the Israelites were worshiping a false idol, or something to that effect. The reality is that the golden bull is Taurus the Bull, and Moses represents the new Age of Aries the Ram. This is why Jews even today still blow the Ram's horn. Moses represents the new Age of Aries, and upon the new age, everyone must shed the old age. Other deities mark these transitions as well, a pre-Christian god who kills the bull, in the same symbology.

"Tell a person that you're the Metatron and they stare at you blankly. Mention something out of a Charlton Heston movie and suddenly everybody is a theology scholar." The more reading I do, the more I find a consensus that bible stories weren't based on *actual* events as I was raised to believe, instead being told for their aniconic properties - Aesop's Fables of their time. Stories for the purpose of moral lessons. Examples.

Which brings me back to my foreshadowing of things in this film which ended up disproving one of my conclusions - the belief that the Old Testament was infallible - not subject to the same pagan manipulation as the New Testament. I discovered that each of the various sun-gods mentioned above (Attis, Krishna, Dionysus and Mithra, among others) all have their own Moses-story, nearly identical to his. Those who know me know what a blow this is, as I've been able to let go of a lot of what I was taught, holding on to the only thing I had left, the Old Testament.

Now Jesus is the figure who ushers in the age following Aries, the Age of Pisces the Two Fish. Fish symbolism is very abundant in the New Testament. Jesus feeds 5000 people with bread and "2 fish." When he begins his ministry walking along Galilei, he befriends 2 fisherman, who follow him. And I think we've all seen the Jesus-fish on the backs of people's cars. Little do they know what it actually means. It is a Pagan astrological symbolism for the Sun's Kingdom during the Age of Pisces. Also, Jesus' assumed birth date is essentially the start of this age.

At Luke 22:10 when Jesus is asked by his disciples where the next passover will be, Jesus replied: "Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you bearing a pitcher of water... follow him into the house where he entereth in." This scripture is by far one of the most revealing of all the astrological references. The man bearing a pitcher of water is Aquarius, the water-bearer, who is always pictured as a man pouring out a pitcher of water. [S119] He represents the age after Pisces, and when the Sun (God's Sun) leaves the Age of Pisces (Jesus), it will go into the House of Aquarius, as Aquarius follows Pisces in the precession of the equinoxes. Also Jesus is saying is that after the Age of Pisces will come the Age of Aquarius.

I can only assume that this is but one of many examples of religion's beginnings. In reading the book Sex Worship I found another - entirely logical, but without the extensive bibliography. If there are too many, does that diminish the one example I've provided here? Other than playing the Flying Spaghetti Monster/Invisible Pink Unicorn game of belief critique, this study actually tries to prove the basic tenants of theology.

Are there other theories you're aware of that you can share?

And for those of you - like myself - who are reading this for the very first time, do you still believe that Jesus is the Son of God? And if so...why?



Joshua Gizelt
swashbuckler332 at 2008-10-20 14:28 (UTC) (Link)
I think I can help clear some things up here:

Jesus was a short Guatemalan guy with a mustache that I had worked with at a fast food restaurant while still in college. He made the biscuits, mashed potatoes and roasted chicken.
ehowton at 2008-10-20 21:03 (UTC) (Link)
That make a lot of sense. I like biscuits.
Joshua Gizelt
swashbuckler332 at 2008-10-20 21:13 (UTC) (Link)
They were buttermilk.
Melancthe the Woe, So-Called
melancthe at 2008-10-20 15:11 (UTC) (Link)
Are there other theories you're aware of that you can share?

What do you mean, THEORIES? Are you saying that there's no invisible pink unicorn in my garage?


(Why don't I have a Charlie icon, dammit?)
ehowton at 2008-10-20 21:04 (UTC) (Link)
I guess what I'm asking is if there were, why is it there? What is its purpose?
ehowton at 2009-04-25 00:38 (UTC) (Link)
(Why don't I have a Charlie icon, dammit?)

The writing on the wall.
Cat Who Likes OpenBSD
bsdcat at 2008-10-20 17:12 (UTC) (Link)
OK, so the Bible is full of fables, allegory, and borrowed pagan symbolism - all pretending to be an historical accounting of events, which aren't particularly trustworthy.

Isn't there still some truth there? The allegories serve some purpose, point in some direction, don't they? And hell, historically, there was a reason people started the whole religion in the first place, isn't there? Something people saw in the historical Jesus, that led them to ascribe these particular stories and this particular bent to the astrological template?
ehowton at 2008-10-20 21:10 (UTC) (Link)
...there was a reason people started the whole religion in the first place, isn't there?
Yes, the point of the first part of the video was how religion was created to have a hold over societies to further agendas. The second and third parts brought it in to play through the global markets and finally state-sponsored terrorism. The film was very well done, but I haven't completed it yet, wanting to focus on one part at a time.
Cat Who Likes OpenBSD
bsdcat at 2008-10-20 21:19 (UTC) (Link)
C'mon, you touch on this yourself: a lot of the astrological basis being discussed was simply a particular way to convey and remember and pass on practical knowledge of seasons, calendars, and just about everything else that strongly impacts agrarian cultures.

So here's the problem: what got Christianity started, back before it was the Roman state religion, before the Council of Nicea? We have records that these stories, and at least some of the astrological symbolism, predates it being anything but a weird tiny cult with no influence. What did those early cultists see, what was their interest in a particular bent to the symbolism and the allegories they attributed to Jesus?
ehowton at 2008-10-20 22:25 (UTC) (Link)
I see what you mean. I don't know. Among biblical scholars, Jesus as a man walking the earth is rarely disputed, while amongst detractors he was simply the myths personified. Its a great question because it asks how Christianity got its start in such a way it way that the pagan beliefs wee applied to it - something I'd never thought to ask.

In the film, they suggest Christianity was entirely engineered, then adopted, as a political tool in order to justify control for the purpose of submission to authority. As this is entirely new to me, I have not yet looked into the validity of that claim.
Cat Who Likes OpenBSD
bsdcat at 2008-10-21 00:36 (UTC) (Link)
Ignore for a second the question of an historical Jesus: there was still a Christian religion, as a weird heretical cult, centuries before Constantine I and the First Council of Nicaea.

Just some extra stuff to think about... I don't have any answers about the real roots of Christianity, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as what you're saying about the video suggests their thesis to be. :)
galinda822 at 2008-10-20 20:24 (UTC) (Link)

My thoughts...

I don't subscribe to any one religion. I equally believe in a higher power and evolution. I generally think of the Bible as fictional. I've always leaned slightly toward "New Age". I think the term "New Age" generally frightens people. No matter what religion people believe in every one of them have their "faith". Does that make any one wrong? That's an age old question.

ps: I always liked "The Age of Aquarius" by The 5th Dimension. :)
ehowton at 2008-10-20 21:13 (UTC) (Link)

Re: My thoughts...

Does that make any one wrong?
If you are part of a faith which you believe gives you the right to destroy lives in the name of your faith, then yes, I believe it does. Many do, and they feel righteous in doing so.
galinda822 at 2008-10-20 22:36 (UTC) (Link)

Re: My thoughts...

Of course I agree with you on that. Maybe I should have said...Does that make any one right?
galinda822 at 2008-10-20 22:52 (UTC) (Link)
BTW...I love the depictions of the zodiac signs! Especially Aquarius. ;)
ehowton at 2008-10-20 22:59 (UTC) (Link)
Thank you! That was catttitude's favorite as well. I was stuck because I couldn't find a graphical representation of the zodiac which conveyed the foreshadowing of the my post...so I made one!
galinda822 at 2008-10-20 23:36 (UTC) (Link)
Sis and I usually do like the same things. We're women of exceptional taste. :)
joey_glover at 2008-10-21 00:59 (UTC) (Link)
personally, i absolutely do still believe
ehowton at 2008-10-21 02:07 (UTC) (Link)
...and that he also rode dinosaurs? I mean, that was pretty cool.
joey_glover at 2008-10-21 02:16 (UTC) (Link)
don't stop believing, hold on to that feeling yee-yeaah
thesweetestnote at 2009-02-24 00:08 (UTC) (Link)

My Confession - hope I don't burn for this one.

Catholicism and Christianity have always - for lack of better term... fucked my mind up. I'm being honest. Something has never sit well with me ever since catechism. And not just because it interrupted my Saturday morning cartoon line-up, but because nobody ever had an answer for my questions. They basically said the word of God "The Bible" was right and never question it - follow it. Period. Or, burn in Hell forever.

My take is that it is the greatest book ever written. A manual for everyday living. Stupid fucks need it for correction (I do include myself in there BTW).

But there are countless groups of Christians telling each other and the world that everyone is wrong except for them. All taking their own "true meaning" from it and building a church and following.

That's fucking retarded! According to all those people were gonna burn in Hell. Then comes to mind what you said about Satan trying to test fuck our faith by planting doubt. It's said the greatest accomplishment Satan ever did was making man believe he did not exist. That's one of the things that messes me up and doubt.
But aside from all that... here is what I'd like to think, aside from what my Pastor thinks I believe.

Earth is a beginning point of sorts. Or, perhaps a type of school our souls attend. You don't pass. Guess what? you come back to repeat the grade. I take this from Wiccan belief. Reincarnation. It makes a shit load more sense than any answer a pastor or priest has given me, which neither believe in.

This one guy explained it best by saying that God doesn't want a bunch of junk going into his universe so hence the need for reincarnation. A way to perfect the soul through different life times. Each time the soul learns something new. Until full enlightenment then you move on. It's also said that this information on reincarnation was taken out of the Bible at some point. The reason: If people knew of this, then they could live however they wanted thinking they could come back and make up for it in the next life. This would defeat the whole purpose of perfecting the soul and moving forward as was meant.

But over all I know:

I will answer to God for my actions here on Earth.

Jesus is one awesome dude.

Do I need salvation through Jesus to get into heaven??? I struggle with that everyday

I liked that line in Dogma:
"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier."

Edited at 2009-02-24 12:11 am (UTC)
snapper521 at 2009-04-24 20:30 (UTC) (Link)
Interesting stuff. Glad to see you're still stretching those brain cells.

Not so sure I buy any of it, but it's still interesting.

I read this, while sitting in my boyfriends dorm and read some of it to him. As always he is keeping his opinions to himself, but as he will be going into the Ministry as a Lutheran Pastor I thought he may find it interesting.
ehowton at 2009-04-25 00:44 (UTC) (Link)
Not so sure I buy any of it, but it's still interesting.

I really don't know which part you're disagreeing with. I refuse to give up God as the creator, but the more I learn about ancient pagan religions, the more convinced I am that Jesus is not divine. I simply will not ignore the facts to sate my own desires. Simply put, I can't pretend that history did not happen.

Good luck to him! What an exciting adventure!
snapper521 at 2009-04-25 02:08 (UTC) (Link)
I'm stuck on my beliefs, and although you disagree, they are what they are. I am content with them.

(*smile*) Yes this should be quite the adventure alright. If someone had come to me and told me that I would find the love of my life in a man who wants to be a pastor, and who I grew up with, having known him my entire life, I would have told them they were dreaming. However the Lord has designed it to be so, no matter how ridiculous it may have seemed to me years ago.
michelle1963 at 2012-11-08 15:22 (UTC) (Link)
FASCINATING! I knew Christianity was based on Pagan beliefs, but the details are simply astounding.

While you may not have been completely aware of who you would become, yes you were definitely saying many of the same things and thinking along the same lines 4 years ago. Change is a gradual building of tweaks until all of a sudden critical mass is reached, and you realize, "Wow, I've changed!"

In regard to the conversation with Dentin regarding hard-wiring.... While some people are hard-wired to be happy in their unhappiness, you (and me) are hard-wired for pattern seeking, logic, and knowledge drinking.

It's good to be us! :D
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