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Eric

Goth

Posted on 2006.10.23 at 16:22
Current Location: 63134
Current Music: Rachel Portman - The Lake House
Tags: , , , ,
My xangian antithesis, The Theologian posted this, an actual letter sent out by the St. Mary's Catholic Church:




Listed below are some warning signs to indicate if your
child may have gone astray from the Lord.

Gothic (or goth) is a very obscure and often dangerous culture that young teenagers are prone to participating in. The gothic culture leads young, susceptible minds into an imagined world of evil,darkness, and violence. Please seek immediate attention through counseling, prayer, and parental guidance to rid your child of Satan's temptations if five or more of the following are applicable to your child:

  • Frequently wears black clothing.

  • Wears band and/or rock t-shirts.

  • Wears excessive black eye makeup, lipstick or nail polish.

  • Wears any odd, silver jewelry or symbols. Some of these include: reversed crosses, pentagrams, pentacles, ankhs or various other Satanic worshipping symbols.

  • Shows an interest in piercings or tattoos.

  • Listens to gothic or any other anti-social genres of music. (Marilyn Manson claims to be the anti-Christ, and publicly speaks against the Lord. Please discard any such albums IMMEDIATELY.)

  • Associates with other people that dress, act or speak eccentrically.

  • Shows a declining interest in wholesome activities, such as: the Bible, prayer, church or sports.

  • Shows an increasing interest in death, vampires, magic, the occult, witchcraft or anything else that involves Satan.

  • Takes drugs.

  • Drinks alcohol.

  • Is suicidal and/or depressed.

  • Cuts, burns or partakes in any other method of self-mutilation. (This is a Satanic ritual that uses pain to detract from the light of God and His love. Please seek immediate attention for this at your local mental health center.)

  • Complains of boredom.

  • Sleeps too excessively or too little.

  • Is excessively awake during the night.

  • Dislikes sunlight or any other form of light. (This pertains to vampires promoting the idea that His light is of no use.)

  • Demands an unusual amount of privacy.

  • Spends large amounts of time alone.

  • Requests time alone and quietness. (This is so that your child may speak to evil spirits through meditation.)

  • Insists on spending time with friends while unaccompanied by an adult.

  • Disregards authority figures; teachers, priests, nuns and elders are but a few examples of this.

  • Misbehaves at school.

  • Misbehaves at home.

  • Eats excessively or too little.

  • Eats goth-related foods. Count Dracula cereal is an example of this. (*Remark: it's Count Chocula, not Dracula, idiots.)

  • Drinks blood or expresses an interest in drinking blood. (Vampires believe this is how to attain Satan. This act is very dangerous and should be stopped immediately.)

  • Watches cable television or any other corrupted media sources. (Ask your local church for proper programs that your child may watch.)

  • Plays videos games that contains violence or role-playing nature.

  • Uses the internet excessively and frequently makes time for the computer.

  • Makes Satanic symbols and/or violently shakes head to music.

  • Dances to music in a provocative or sexual manner.

  • Expresses an interest in sex.

  • Masturbates

  • Is homosexual and/or bisexual.

  • Pursues dangerous cult religions. Such include: Satanism, Scientology, Philosophy, Paganism, Wicca, Hinduism and Buddhism.

  • Wears pins, stickers or anything else that contains these various phrases: "I'm so gothic, I'm dead", "woe is me", "I'm a goth".

  • Claims to be a goth.



If five or more of these apply to your child, please intervene immediately. The gothic culture is dangerous and Satan thrives within it. If any of these problems persist, enlist your child into your local mental health center.




Now the implications of half of those things being chalked up to teen angst or adolescent rebellion notwithstanding (I can guarantee, for example, no Marilyn Manson will ever enter my house) I have begun assessing these sorts of events by use of the following tool -

  1. I would never bang a Goth chick, unless she was really hot.

  2. I would never let my daughter dress Goth.



I find that makes my life so much easier if I address all the really tough questions in this manner.

Which reminds me, I've been having difficulty understanding the point of view of people who wear a bunch of crap in their face demanding that I don't 'judge them' and I've come to this conclusion all on my own.

I WON'T JUDGE YOU IF YOU TAKE ALL OF THAT SHIT OUT OF YOUR FACE.

It seems to me, that through these 'expressions' if you must, that the goal is to be judged. I mean, why else do it. Basically, you're screaming "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME!" Mind you, I may not judge you the way you wish to be judged, but I suppose that's the chance you take. And just in case you get angry at me for judging you, I offer you this, Don't judge me for judging you. How do you like me now?

As usual, there could be something I'm missing here, so feedback is most welcome. Basically, I applied the same principals as above:

  1. I would never bang a chick with a bunch of shit in her face, unless she was really hot.

  2. I would not let my daughter wear a bunch of shit in her face.


Comments:


drax0r
drax0r at 2006-10-23 19:59 (UTC) (Link)
If this list had gotten into my parents' hands 15 years ago, I'd have been in big trouble.


Frequently wears black clothing.
Wears band and/or rock t-shirts.

Check and check.



Wears excessive black eye makeup, lipstick or nail polish.

I seem to recall having had my nails painted (or sharpee'd) black from time to time.



Shows an interest in piercings or tattoos.

Does this include piercing one's ear with a safety-pin in the school cafeteria?



Listens to gothic or any other anti-social genres of music.

Take your pick, Bauhaus or NIN? I was all about both. My musical tastes ranged from 'Bella Legousi's Dead (undead, undead undead)' to 'Don't think you're having all the fun, you know me, I hate EVERYONE!'



Associates with other people that dress, act or speak eccentrically.

I still do this to this day.



Shows a declining interest in wholesome activities, such as: the Bible, prayer, church or sports.

I like the concept of 'the Bible' as a wholesome activity. The idea of 'book as activity' notwithstanding, the bible is certainly a fantastic passtime for impressionable youths. I used to play a little Bible game called 'spot the contradictions' -- It was always good for hours of entertainment.



Complains of boredom.

Uh?



Sleeps too excessively or too little.

I'm guilty of that even now. I must be in league with the devil.



Demands an unusual amount of privacy.

That's just so that I could masturbate.



Spends large amounts of time alone.

Still whackin' it...



Requests time alone and quietness. (This is so that your child may speak to evil spirits through meditation.)

I suppose in a way one could consider it 'releasing evil spirits'. I just thought of it as masturbation.



Insists on spending time with friends while unaccompanied by an adult.
Disregards authority figures; teachers, priests, nuns and elders are but a few examples of this.

Yes. That is soo goth.



Eats goth-related foods.

What the fuck is a goth-related food?



Watches cable television or any other corrupted media sources.

That's pretty defamatory. If I were a cable provider I'd be offended at them mixing up the medium and the message. P.S.: Religious TV channels only come on cable 'round these parts. Perhaps that's what they mean by corrupted media sources.



Uses the internet excessively and frequently makes time for the computer.

Either that or they're doing their homework. Jackass.



Makes Satanic symbols and/or violently shakes head to music.

And all this time you thought your son was epileptic. Turns out he's just been giving himself over to the Lord of Darkness.



Pursues dangerous cult religions. Such include: Satanism, Scientology, Philosophy, Paganism, Wicca, Hinduism and Buddhism.

Dangerous cult religions such as Philosophy? Buddhism? Are you fucking serious? Incidentally, this was the point at which I decided that this list must be a joke.



Wears pins, stickers or anything else that contains these various phrases: "I'm so gothic, I'm dead", "woe is me", "I'm a goth".

All the goths I knew had a button that said "I'm a goth"



Masturbates

Oh. Damnit.



If any of these problems persist, enlist your child into your local mental health center.

Holy Jesus! I think my mother-in-law wrote this!
ehowton
ehowton at 2006-10-23 20:47 (UTC) (Link)
I've always thought of you as on the fringe of goth.
Cat Who Likes OpenBSD
bsdcat at 2006-10-23 20:30 (UTC) (Link)
First: "I WON'T JUDGE YOU IF YOU TAKE ALL OF THAT SHIT OUT OF YOUR FACE." Bullshit, and you know it. :-) You're still judging, try not to lie about it too.

Now, as to "why else do it [but to be judged]". It's simply 'cool' with a particular group of people, and it's part of fitting in with them. It does say "look at me," but that's not the same as "judge me."

Finally, disclosure: yep, I have a mohawk. It's blue right now, and I often wear it fanned out and sticking straight up. I have a number of purposes in doing that, some of which other people share to varying degrees. One is to challenge other people about the opinions they form on sight; one is because it looks cool to me; one is to take away some of the advantages of being white and normal-looking in the United States.

To put it another way, I'm not doing it to be judged - but to give me an opportunity to challenge your outlook should you judge me, and be wrong about it.

Finally, what's wrong with your daughter failing your general test?
Me
photogoot at 2006-10-23 21:50 (UTC) (Link)
Lighten up, Francis.
alyssa
dreamkatch at 2006-10-23 21:42 (UTC) (Link)
Dude, it doesn't have to be a bunch of shit on your face. If you know how to do makeup, you can still look good with a goth style. The ones who just wachunk it on there are just as bad as anyone who tries to wear makeup but can't really get the hang of it. There are some gothic styles that really appeal to me, others that are just god awful and tacky. But, for the record, here are some pics of me:

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Moral: Don't judge a book by the cover it happens to have on that particular day.
ehowton
ehowton at 2006-10-23 21:59 (UTC) (Link)
Excellent point. Sometimes I wear camo-shorts.
irulan_amy at 2006-10-24 03:18 (UTC) (Link)
*raises hand*
I need intervention. Actually I guess it's too late for intervention. Maybe that's the problem. =P
ehowton
ehowton at 2006-10-24 03:28 (UTC) (Link)
Who's to say, really. That list could be applied with ANY label. It's like the start of one of those 12-Step programs.
Complete and Utter Nonsense
jesskd26 at 2006-10-24 10:57 (UTC) (Link)
I read that list several years ago. I laughed at it then, and I laugh at it now. I suppose thats why my mother threw me in a mental institution all those years ago.

I do agree with you on your take of the LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME! syndrome. People do get piercings or tattoos to be judged in one way or another.

I always found it amusing that the things that people do to define their "individuality" have become mainstream in itself. Now its just the same as having the new shoes that are in style or that new CD. You arent being different, you are being exactly the same.

As far as being "goth" I never really understood that word. I guess it is different for everyone I suppose. I never considered myself goth, even as a teenager, but at times I guess I certainly looked the part. It was the style in the 90's to do the whole wearing black thing and being gloomy, and I guess part of being a teenager as well. I can say that I was not trying to be different by any means, in fact I was just trying to fit in. I never once considered it "goth", just as most people who dress "preppy" wouldnt consider it preppy either.

I sure did write a whole lot to just ramble. Oh well.


ehowton
ehowton at 2006-10-24 13:54 (UTC) (Link)
Of course. And you bring up the number one reason why I don't have any tattoo's: I wanted a way to express my individuality.
galinda822 at 2006-10-24 15:22 (UTC) (Link)
Every era has it's 'rebel' group. When I was younger (yes - many, many years ago) there were Jocks and Burnouts. There are always going to be people that are different (or who want to be different) and there will always be judgement.

I myself have many piercings (ears & belly button) and have 2 tattoos. I can't give you a specific reason why I chose to do these things except that I wanted to! Not to fit in or be judged and not to impress anyone but just for myself! For me, that was enough of a reason!
ehowton
ehowton at 2006-10-24 15:34 (UTC) (Link)
Ever since I left high school, I've stopped trying to 'fit in' yet I find that by expressing my individuality, I'm more normal than most. What is normal? What the majority of the population does? It would be hard to pinpoint the demarcation line between that which is normal, and that which is not. Furthermore, there are a lot of things which are, today, 'normal' yet I don't find acceptable. Through that into the mix and you've opened a whole new can of worms. I suppose your reason for doing what you did is as good as any.
dentin
dentin at 2006-10-25 04:01 (UTC) (Link)

Sorry for the length...

* Frequently wears black clothing.

75+% of the time.

* Wears band and/or rock t-shirts.

50+% of the time.

* Wears excessive black eye makeup, lipstick or nail polish.

Only on weekends.

* Shows an interest in piercings or tattoos.

I want to get a tattoo but am not sure yet.

* Listens to gothic or any other anti-social genres of music. (Marilyn Manson claims to be the anti-Christ, and publicly speaks against the Lord. Please discard any such albums IMMEDIATELY.)

I have a 50 gig death/black metal archive, containing music so evil it'll peel paint. The filenames alone can summon minor demons.

* Associates with other people that dress, act or speak eccentrically.

My friends are programmers.

* Shows a declining interest in wholesome activities, such as: the Bible, prayer, church or sports.

I've always hated all of these.

* Shows an increasing interest in death, vampires, magic, the occult, witchcraft or anything else that involves Satan.

I have a 50 gig death/black metal archive.

* Drinks alcohol.

Yes.

* Is excessively awake during the night.

I'm a programmer.

* Dislikes sunlight or any other form of light. (This pertains to vampires promoting the idea that His light is of no use.)

I'm a programmer.

* Demands an unusual amount of privacy.

I'm a programmer.

* Spends large amounts of time alone.

I'm a programmer.

* Requests time alone and quietness. (This is so that your child may speak to evil spirits through meditation.)

I'm a programmer.

* Disregards authority figures; teachers, priests, nuns and elders are but a few examples of this.

Yes.

* Watches cable television or any other corrupted media sources. (Ask your local church for proper programs that your child may watch.)

Yes. Porn too.

* Plays videos games that contains violence or role-playing nature.

I also run such a game, the premise of which is to become powerful by killing innocent creatures.

* Uses the internet excessively and frequently makes time for the computer.

Yes.

* Makes Satanic symbols and/or violently shakes head to music.

Yes.

* Dances to music in a provocative or sexual manner.

Yes.

* Expresses an interest in sex.

Yes.

* Pursues dangerous cult religions. Such include: Satanism, Scientology, Philosophy, Paganism, Wicca, Hinduism and Buddhism.

I've been officially excommunicated from a major religion. I think that counts, even though it's backwards.
ehowton
ehowton at 2006-10-25 04:10 (UTC) (Link)

Re: Sorry for the length...

The filenames alone can summon minor demons. <-- You're killing me!

From what I've been able to piece together from your dissertation, the Catholic Church hates programmers.

Interesting.
dentin
dentin at 2006-10-25 04:37 (UTC) (Link)

And now for the real post...

Over the last few years, I've settled on why I wear the things I wear, say the things I say, and behave the way I do.

I use it as a filter.

I find that by being slightly eccentric, I remove a large proportion of the idiots of the world from my space. They avoid me, they don't talk to me. Granted, I lose a few good people as well, but on the whole the removal of stupidity far outweighs the risk of not meeting someone cool. After all, there's a lot of cool people out there (as this LiveJournal clearly shows), and my various friends orbitals are pretty much full already.

If someone is offended by my Cradle of Filth shirt, what are the odds that I would find talking to them enjoyable? If the fact that I primarily listen to death metal bothers someone, would it help if they also knew I was classically trained and have a large archive of baroque and romantic era pieces?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that perhaps the point of the show isn't so much "LOOK AT ME", as "if you have a problem with this, odds are good I don't want to talk to you". Out of curiousity, don't you (Ehowton) and Drax0r both wear techie garb for the same purpose? To keep non-techie people out of your face? I know I do.

-dentin
ximo
ximo at 2006-10-25 15:03 (UTC) (Link)

Heh

I'm not gonna bother with the test results, as i'm sure you could put a check next to 90% of those. I'll leave it at i started wearing black due to it not staining easily and it worked best with your typical teenager complexion. It's also quite easy to match when your wardrobe exists of two colors (black or blue jeans).

As far as shiat in the face goes, i personally just don't like it. Of course the same holds true of hot pink outfits, obnoxious and/or very loud people, general close mindedness, excessively applied makeup, etc. I'm not quite sure that the piercings are part of just the gothic subset. Punks were doing it long before goths were as the majority of the goth subculture was much more concerned with looking pretty at that time.

On the idea that the gothic movement is more hurtful/damaging to growing youth than other subcultures; i really just have to laugh. Antisocial behavior aside, it presents more benefits than most. Goth doesn't preach any religion (moreover, it tends towards checking them all out and finding what is the most believable), it actively encourages reading which in turn introduces independent thought and other philosophies, and above all really judges people less (if you're an outcast, chances are you'll fit in). In most cases, the some of the very tenants of the intellectual side of the goth subculture lead the person to outgrow the scene rather fast.

Pre-determined bias based upon how a person is dressed/carries themselves isn't the same as judging. One tends to be much more finite than the other. As a rule, i prefer not to judge individuals at all (by default, i hate people in general). 98% of the time, i'm not going to have enough data to even come close to making a fair/accurate assessment. That being said, while i'd prefer my kids (if/when i have them) not wear heavy makeup, excessive face jewelry, or follow any crowd; i'll try my best to allow them to make their own decisions (within reason) based upon their individual thoughts and evaluations.
Tomas Gallucci
schpydurx at 2006-10-26 12:53 (UTC) (Link)
I think that the purpose of this exercise is to show that an effect does not necessitate a specific cause, i.e. that inter-related facts do not predicate a cause and effect relationship. For example, more because more people die on US highways then do people who serve in the miltary does not mean that it is safer to join the military nor that you have a lower chance of dying on a US highway if you join the military. Discuss.
ehowton
ehowton at 2006-10-26 14:04 (UTC) (Link)
While I find your example cmpletely retarded, your logic behind it is sound.

Yes, it would appear that an effect does not necessitate a specific cause, which is why I asked for feedback on this post. Lots of stuff I wanted to understand, and now do.
Penguin Puppetmaster
oxy_irony at 2006-10-26 23:15 (UTC) (Link)
Do you mind if I snatch this for my own take, on my journal?
ehowton
ehowton at 2006-10-27 00:13 (UTC) (Link)
Take anything you want. Look what's it caused me. And the guy I took it from. To tell you the truth, I'm surprised I didn't run you off with my outrageous comments.
(Anonymous) at 2006-11-02 10:40 (UTC) (Link)

NEVER

How soon we forget. NEVER say "I will never....."! You may have to eat those words. Balance, balance, balance.
ehowton
ehowton at 2006-11-02 15:18 (UTC) (Link)

Re: NEVER

Yes, I know that once she begins to enter her teens I may have to allow for certain idiosyncrasies...unless of course you were referring to me banging a goth chick.
Samantha
thesweetestnote at 2009-02-06 16:10 (UTC) (Link)
Wow! Due to time constraints I haven't read through all the comments,just drax0r's - which I love to do - so I am just going to add mine, two plus something years later...

I would be burned at the steak for that list. I am a God fearing individual. But c'mon! It's shit lists like this that have given guilt to so many individuals throughout time. Enough guilt for them to not give a shit about anything and indeed turn into some evil motherfuckers (sorry no better way to put it). The teenage years are so wacky (no pun intended) that stuff like this make them rebel more. Good parenting is essential. Too many neglect proper parenting by hiding behind the Bible and not actual application. There's some good stuff in there.

Jesus was buddies with hookers, pimps, tax collectors, junkies and murderers to name a few. It seems those that bash what is different seem to forget this and miss the main point.... Love each other assholes!!!

There are moral codes to follow but geez... because I'm dressed like Johnny Cash (priest and nuns seem to do this all the f'ing time) I am part of satan's legion?!?!?!

"# I would never bang a chick with a bunch of shit in her face, unless she was really hot.

# I would not let my daughter wear a bunch of shit in her face."


I concur. heheh Reminds me of Pulp Fiction "[Vincent]...is that the one with all the shit in her face?".... [Floyd] No... That's my wife

I have a daughter and two boys. I stand by my parenting. Some metal in their face wouldn't bother me too much, nor black make-up...etc (It would give me ample room to ride their ass about it...muhahahha!) I would be concerned and ask them why they would want to do such things. But for me it's about their moral code and level of responsibility. When these are in check it kinda cancels out a lot of worry about freaking black lip stick and nail polish and why they might be wearing it. Maybe because they simply like it. Much like myself.




Edited at 2009-02-06 04:14 pm (UTC)
ehowton
ehowton at 2009-02-06 17:07 (UTC) (Link)
I haven't read through all the comments,just drax0r's
My specific sticking point was with bsdcat and our aside on judgment as what you brought up on your post reminded me of that conversation. Basically, that the first people who scream "Don't judge me" are out trolling for just that. Almost martyrs in a way.

Good parenting is essential.
Yes! But also so difficult! I'm often second-guessing myself, wondering if what I'm doing is the right thing to do. I must be doing *something* right though, because even though I often don't see it at home, I'm told my boy is very polite - something I strive for him to be! (I just hope I'm not secretly raising an Eddie Haskell...)

I'm dressed like Johnny Cash...
Were you there when they crucified my Lord?

No... That's my wife
I know, right? Hysterical. "Doh!"

It would give me ample room to ride their ass about it...
Hrm, I never thought about it like that. I see the brilliance in this. Thanks for the tip!

Edited at 2009-02-06 05:19 pm (UTC)
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